33 replies to this topic

[Sleeping Bear]

I don't know if this question has been answered anywhere, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Can jump jets be fitted on a non-jump jet equipped variant?

As a tribes fan and a fan of generally high mobility classes/builds in fps games, I would really appreciate it if jump jets were an additional equipment and were not subject to hardpoint limitations. Having it stated that urban and close combat environments would be in the game, I believe that having a jump jet equipped variant/loadout would be nearly an automatic thing. Even the slowest mechs benefit from jump jets when involved in close quarters battle. I think that allowing any mech to jump would add another element of tactics to the game. The benefits of jump jets are so good that it would take a pretty strong argument or committment for me not to mount them if I had the choice.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Sleeping Bear, on 27 May 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

I don't know if this question has been answered anywhere, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Can jump jets be fitted on a non-jump jet equipped variant?

As a tribes fan and a fan of generally high mobility classes/builds in fps games, I would really appreciate it if jump jets were an additional equipment and were not subject to hardpoint limitations. Having it stated that urban and close combat environments would be in the game, I believe that having a jump jet equipped variant/loadout would be nearly an automatic thing. Even the slowest mechs benefit from jump jets when involved in close quarters battle. I think that allowing any mech to jump would add another element of tactics to the game. The benefits of jump jets are so good that it would take a pretty strong argument or committment for me not to mount them if I had the choice.

Don't beleive so, think the original variant needs to have Jump Jets.

[SideSt3p]

But this leads into the next question:

Can a non-jump jet varient of a 'Mech (Cataphract 1X) take Jump Jets when there are other varients (CTF-3D) which do? Because it's been shown that the chassis can support the Jump Jets, but the 1X does not.

Edited by SideSt3p, 27 May 2012 - 05:38 AM.

[Sleeping Bear]

Just wanted to point out that jump jets are equipment and not weapons so maybe the hardpoint rule shouldn't apply to them.

[Redshift2k5]

It is not exactly the same rules as hardpoints, but the idea is to limit which chassis may or may not have jumpjets. Putting jump jets on a Cataphract 1X is a very good question, though

[Spleenslitta]

I'm concerned about this too. I don't want to wait about 25 years to put jump jets on a Commando.

[Sleeping Bear]

This is a very weird topic when it comes to canon. Since there are many instances of designs that intially did not have jump jets, with later production variants having jump jets installed. So the argument that the chassis was not designed to be jump capable seems moot. Also there are some instances of units with savvy technical support able to modify a chassis to place jump jets on it. Just putting this out there.

[Juiced]

Sleeping Bear, on 27 May 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

This is a very weird topic when it comes to canon. Since there are many instances of designs that intially did not have jump jets, with later production variants having jump jets installed. So the argument that the chassis was not designed to be jump capable seems moot. Also there are some instances of units with savvy technical support able to modify a chassis to place jump jets on it. Just putting this out there.

I think this falls under game balance more than is it possible in the BT universe to do it. Kind of like the hard point system being based on what varient you choose.

[Adridos]

I don't know.

On one hand, it adds another dimmension to a battle.
On the other hand, it makes mechs less unique.

Edited by Adridos, 27 May 2012 - 06:39 AM.

[Roland]

You can't really allow every single mech to equip jumpjets without screwing up one of the major balancing elements of the game.

[Pvt Dancer]

Roland, on 27 May 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

You can't really allow every single mech to equip jumpjets without screwing up one of the major balancing elements of the game.

Sure you can, as the balance is that jump jets take up tonnage based off of the weight of the mech in question as well as fitting in the critical slots.

10-55 ton mech, JJs are .5 a ton per movement point
60-85 ton mechs, JJ are 1 ton per movement point
90-100 ton mechs Jump Jets are 2 ton per movement point
Each mech has a cap of it's walk speed for jump jets. You can only place them in the torso or legs.

So for example, a Commando is a 6/9 mech. To add in jump jets to increase the speed to it's maximum, you would need to strip down 3 tons of equipment and 6 critical slots to turn it into a 6/9/6. You start looking at FF or Endo to save that tonnage you will probably run out of critical spaces, so you end up stripping out armor or weapons. An Atlas would need 6 tons of space and 3 critical slots to turn it into a 3/5/3 and a Dragon would need to clear out 5 tons of space and 5 crit slots to turn into a 5/8/5.

Nothing stats in the book I have about 'balancing' the jump jets location-wise, so legally you could have a mech with a single jump jet in one leg instead of say the center torso, but that could easily be changed by the Devs, as could a minimum number. Also in table top the way it worked was for every hex space up you went counted as a movement point...so if you wanted to do a Death from Above on someone, you would need 2 JJs minimum (one to get above the mech and one to move over to the squad the other mech was in). This is the reason why you see alot of Mechs in the 3025 TRO with 3 jump jets minimum instead of one or two, so they could go up a 'cliff' of two hex's height, since mechs can't 'climb'.

To be honest, I feel it is not a balance thing as much as the Devs either don't want to deal with every mech potentially having jump jets graphically or want to keep the few mechs with it as more desirable. The grind in the game will be unlocking chassies, not mechs themselves.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Even where a mech has JJs ie Catapult, not all variants have them ie K2 doesn't.. It seems to be a Dev decision to limit JJs for their own reasons, same as they have limited hardpoints. I just wished we had a jumping medium.

[Raeven]

Jump Jets cost enough in heat and weight, you ought to be able to mount them to anything.

[Sleeping Bear]

Heat, weight, crits are all reasons that I believe that jump jets should be considered equipment and not weapons. Equipment is only limited by the crits and weight you have available, not by hardpoints. Case in point, Guardian ECM and Beagle Active Probe don't seem to be restricted by hardpoint type, only space and weight. I just want to be able to mount jump jets on a medium.

[MaddMaxx]

Jump Jets can compensate for lower Engine ratings, thus if I need to reduce anything to add JJ's I can reduce my Engine rating so I lose very little weapons wise. If, the Dev forced the use of non-engine based weight to allow it, then perhaps, but that would generally "suck" and the rantings would not be worth it.

If the original design was without, then buy a variant with. Most Variant changes are done in the Factory that produced the original design and any JJ additions would surely have the applicable structural changes applied as well.

[Gremlich Johns]

What MaddMaxx says ^

JJs being available for everything makes this game Hawken, frankly. There are limited numbers of mech variants in Canon with JJs. Best to leave it at that. If you make your own variant of mech and it does not have JJs, then you should not be able to install them. If it does have JJs, then do not take them off unless you need the tonnage.

[Adrienne Vorton]

yea my opinion: keep jumpjets something special and desireable...there is nothing worse i can imagine than all those assault bunnyhopping all the day...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 28 May 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

I'm all for game balance of mechs and their desired roles on the online battlefield.

If giving complete access of jumpjets to certain mechs that already have an assigned role on the battlefield, you threaten to make make others obsolete as certain "staple" mechs are discovered with certain load outs.

I'm all for making jump sets restricted to certain mechs and off limits to others.

The mech lab doesn't have to be a complete system where we can change everything about the mechs.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 29 May 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Raeven]

I can't agree Maxx. How does going slower compensate for JumpJets? I think you are underestimating the real disadvantage you are suffering by sacrificing speed for Jump Jets. Sure, with already fast medium and light 'Mechs, no big loss, but speed is life for already fast 'Mechs because they have given up armor and weapons for that speed.

[MaddMaxx]

Raeven, on 28 May 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I can't agree Maxx. How does going slower compensate for JumpJets? I think you are underestimating the real disadvantage you are suffering by sacrificing speed for Jump Jets. Sure, with already fast medium and light 'Mechs, no big loss, but speed is life for already fast 'Mechs because they have given up armor and weapons for that speed.

My point was that for the argument they cost weight, space etc and one has to give up armor or guns, that is not the case. One drop in Engine rating can save huge weight, or switching to an XL even (50%) for no speed lose in that case.

So if I want to maintain fire power and still have mobility, I could reduce the engine rating 1 notch, save as much as 6-7T's in weight and the JJ's will give me more movement (vertical) freedom than not having them, while running/moving just 10-15 kph less.

Of course the JJ's would best serve a slow mover anyways. The latest addition to the MWO stable, the CTF-3D @70T has JJ's so each weight class will have them it seems.

P.S. If allowed, almost everyone will add them them, as soon as it is seen, as a must have.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.